Bradfo Sho, Ep. 35: Thoracic Outlet Syndrome Edition

The Bradfo Sho
Friday, June 16th
Rob Bradford and Tim Britton of the Providence Journal are joined by Dr. Dan Quinn of Newton Wellesley Orthopedic Associates to uncover exactly what Tyler Thornburg is having surgery for, and what it means for the pitcher's future. Bradford and Britton also spin the wheel of relievers to define who has been the biggest surprise for the surprisingly Red Sox bullpen. The duo also breakdown their yearbook pictures.

Transcript - Not for consumer use. Robot overlords only. Will not be accurate.

Add road show. That's my open definitely probably would have brought that's my old. Query where you don't know what you're stupid. Brad broad show. That's delicious. 35 Brad shot the negligent in this. Podcast this week I apologize to all of mine folks out there who are just keep refreshing and refreshing and refreshing. Hoping that another one is blast and was good the mossy. And I talking about clubhouse confrontations which is dollars in new conversation and beacon of clubhouse conversations the man that does David Price of a masters in Britain province journal. Even after me I don't know if I figured as one of the water but what of the writers there didn't Tim Britton province journal joining us today. To talk about the best Red Sox bullpen in the history of the organization. As we sit here taping this podcast. And this is done this bullpen achievement is done without the services of the guys that they thought was going to be the one who put. Them into a serviceable. Open which is tyra Thornburgh what happened to Tyler Thornburg. Today what was or attempt tellers armor is gonna have surgery tomorrow rob on Friday for thoracic outlet syndrome below rolls off on. And you know how they don't even noticing that the Red Sox reliever but the high school pitchers. I think he's no study the high school pitchers up in the bullpen behind where this vote to say you know that yet though just Thornburgh still get a picture up there. Has he headed up there yet I don't know if the residents Robbie Ross if his torn down. Yeah lately do they sell them in and out win when you get them the roster was as a reasonable and move at least once a week usually two or three times I did they have any sense of humor in all I would instead of the high school pitchers that would put up the MRI. Results. Of every every single one of whom will that I think that's private information on that that you're violating seasons as best at NASA's camera it's gonna zoom in there and say in in violation of rules you know Buck Showalter got access to those cameras in the I. On their ego is he sees right there it's right there but you also to be little more transparent I think these days we want a little more transparency. As we have sad year for Ree months trying to figure out what is wrong with that court burn that's a good putt on transparent with an MRI and the only thing. Anyway Tim Raines whether it's we're gonna talk all about the bullpen we're gonna do the wheel of surprises. So all all the we respect that wield them. Or even better give the power rankings to embrace and surprises. When it comes to the Red Sox bullpen because you go down on the list and in everyone's a candidate for the biggest surprise. Everyone has the the the possibility of winning that 100 dollars cools gift card for for being the most surprising. Member of the Red Sox bullpen that that might we actually have to take that away from. The pop media member of Boston media and give it to the Red Sox bullpen because I feel like. They're suffering so much my feeling is that you have an unlimited supply of hundred dollar Gould's gift cards that you just like rained down on boils discharge. You win on certain days of the week I mean I'm not this day I make it rain yes that. Listen this is quite the expertise yet. I cover in there my wife I says honey. A normal way all the time public in one of supplying the family. Hundred dollar gift cards schools is that the clothing perfect perfect thing for her to buy you for father's death fifth street. It's a circle of life. Anyway Tim Britton progress journal book before we get into our conversations in the real low ball and surprises. We're going to first talk to the guy one of our go to doctor Dan Quinn of Newton Wellesley. Orthopedic associates to Alice. Exactly what we're dealing with. When it comes to Tyler Thornburg Mickey and other appearance in the brow approach so the guys that want the guys that Newton Wellesley ortho edict associates that we always turn to doctor Dan complain. Who'll he's our fails say he's the guy when we are really really stupid about something make it's really really Smart though doctor Quinn RU. Robert. And so the thing it's making us feel very very stupid this time around and I should note Tim Britons with me and you know perfect scores SATs and he even feel stupid about this right. Yeah there there's no medical sections the SATs for reasons that. Well there should be. So the reason why were a little off flummoxed by this topic is because it's. We go through the Tommy John surgeries and the labor and surgeries in all these but every once in awhile this one comes up for drastic. Ali syndrome. It's a disease that corrected in my saying that correct number one. When a camera. Yet more yes so I guess in the simplest way to do this is what the heck are we talking about. Well you right it is one of those typical. Injury error condition that you find anyway. What nobody. But. Essentially what this syndrome. Is is it compresses. Syndrome. That occurs around the shoulder what's called perhaps outlet. And the brass outlet. Deeply contains. Couple structures the most important structure to a talked about the get compressed are the nerves that go credential and armed. And the major blood vessel. If either of these get compressed and you can have a number of different symptoms and days they range from numbness and tingling pain. Two. Swelling of the will of the armed to. You know lack of blood flow. Not nominees either accepting that. In the present and they opted present only when the person that they engaging in activity. The cog distant and so rest is sitting comfortably in me they would deal with so it was a problem. This. Grants are. Are gonna say so it took pictures you know with so many things go wrong in the shoulder mean. Why can't you can't even shoulder the neck of the too far more common problem sources. Obviously thinking maybe the label there in the rotator cuff scared maybe they have them now. A little bit of instability in the shoulder you know it is a bit of weakness or oversight or something who assert that there are more common. Silliness this sort of syndrome. A present quote sentences are down the list of things to think it might be. It given that is this something view the Red Sox serve and you know us in the media is something we should have seen coming given that that Thornburgh you know has been out with the shoulder intention since late march that they couldn't really get their finger on what was going on that. You know is this something that the Red Sox could've seen earlier given that it it's now a nine month recovery period form. Yet though I think like it's that you probably you know your top ten diagnosed at nothing to do with perhaps outlet syndrome and you know there isn't there isn't anybody out there who received a lot of threats outlets in Germany it is not. It presents with so many different symptoms like doesn't look or numbness and tingling pain it can present a headache he. And there's not a specific task into an MRI they leaders are rotator cup. You know him right there there's an MRI that recruited because it's sort of a dynamic process. And getting pinched in a certain position that the army is being held. That's their that's kind of in a target and down and there are some physical exam tests you can do there are some. They're testing can do there's blood vessel that they can do but they're just. They're not typical test you can order. Com because you'd be working up much more common things are. You know one of the questions when it comes to Thornburgh was this goes back to spring training. Got a lot of criticism because he said he was doing this new shoulder program. The news shall program is that too strenuous and ways that they had to shut them down because of that. Betty came back and then he pitched a little bit and then he was shelved and now a couple months later this is where were at my question is. Does where we have land where this has landed does that have anything to do with the elbow issues that he had before. The something that is something that he had to deal would be for where we seen it time and time again you overcompensate one area and you end up. Injuring something else do you think that that might have been a situation here. You know I I think that's impossible to know that it has isn't sure you are well aware. And that it that it is probably the single pitcher in Major League. That has good a perfect shoulder or elbow and back date city. Very rarely. Can one have an elbow probably not actual the public the same time. The most common. Cause for the rest skeleton over the is you know it on the predisposition with some kind of trauma added on top of that so you think that. You know the at a trauma is you know repetitive injuries. I'm throwing so hard medium can exchange it you can attribute that the united that's. It's a measurable Egypt. And I think I'd be hard pressed they like. You know isn't it to direct direct correlation that that certainly. Violence in most. Pitchers with shoulder elbow problems you always have to take a look at you know the joint venture balance work and while it. You mentioned some of the other shoulder things he can run through first you know Lieberman chair per site is what we're desist. Policy rank in terms of severity for Thornburg where your thinking in obviously out for the season to try to come back next year how how severe is this compared to salute the injuries were more used to seeing for pitchers. I think in his favor I think that if you can. Eliminate it compresses syndrome than he may be very well completely cured. You know they'll probably it'll take you know. Six months for him probably to feel good up to throw and then another six months to go the dharma that. You know I certainly think there's plenty of optimism that this is in fact you know what's going on and do the procedure that decompress and then. You know wedge to the pressure up there and he'll from the surgeons that are building back up that. You know I wouldn't be surprised. If you know shortly after surgery it starts trying to throw again. You know they'll they'll know pretty quickly that it solve the problem or didn't when it is the source of the problem will be able to throw its initial price of great. Now when this first resurfaced today and meet found out that that one Burton this was going to be an issue for him. I immediately remembered is this what we do we remember guys who've gone through before I remember Josh Beckett had the same sort of thing. The annual Bard had the same thought for a bank in the first thing I thought of doctor was. Was there something to do with the removal overrated. Now is sick if MI wrong is your certainly do with the removal overrated in this situation. I don't that was I think that was Adam didn't put it this happened after that is there isn't fact. A case. It's about what what are the potential. Compressing structures on what we're talking about it but the color cervical red. And if there's an extra rib. Coming up the the spinal column. That can interfere with the nerves or blood vessels so. Yeah its is that the compress the structures typically either. A muscle of the scaling muscle or a cervical rib. It can be just. You know political actual band which is just soft tissue structure that's an it firm in. Provide instructional support for the whole shall there. You know detector Alice. Minor muscle which is underneath tech Manger that can sometimes. Console for the compression is so it to make sure the Agassi look he. I figure which structure are actually involved in the compression. And you can diagnose these were you know with imaging like an extra layer CT scan those relations with the reds. And now the history of guys coming back from this is a little spotty here and there rob mentioned Beckett who came back and threw a no hitter but only pitch one more year and a Chris Carpenter from the cardinals really struggled coming back we've seen other guys I may Garcia has come back and pitched pretty well since it is there any benefit for two armored being a younger guy. Coming back from this is is that is easier to do this at his age that may be in his in his thirties. Yet you know the younger guys though it's still better than that local slept in the count so to speak because a lot of you know what. You know the mileage could just put on their shoulders though and when that special the electric outlets in the number of state broke starting all the way back in Little League. Let again some of these I don't I don't call that the specifics of those pitchers that certainly you know most of the press outlet syndrome. Problems are caused compression of the nerve and so if you can we compression than their that's. There may be. It's assumed that the terrible world completely regenerate. I am not sure of the vascular structures. Those. Occasionally probably a little bit worse because you can have problems with what qualities that problems. Clotting and sometimes there's some. Times when you have to know. I'm prepared the Dane or the artery which. This really doesn't salad with former is still wet but those would certainly two maybe. You know more apt to. Run into problems after surgery and the girls it's. Doctor Ding corn you've done and again you've made us much much more intelligent human beings so. It's we were is always appreciated it but it's a pretty it's really appreciate this time because like I said this is something that we just haven't seen come around. A whole lot and it's not a Tommy Johnson is not the labor and this is something. We had to dig in a little bit deeper and you did you helped us do exactly that so thanks so much. If you you you aren't the first person who says that won't be able thanks start when they keep your rep what. Well it's always good stuff from doctor Quinn Tim. You feel. More intelligent smarter how often do you think he gets the medicine woman joke. I know I could barely did the T I mean I had to resist it because I Philly keep it it's probably like a part of his daily life. So here's the thing. Ike he's I know he's been in the market just before we have a relationship and a VOA. These great guys see I've seen having a few moderate sized games. You wanna come band right yeah I don't think he's like one years old. But he's not an old guy he's calling my dad on the call mr. And so what you still wants to doctor you have to call a guy doctor Wright until until he says don't call me doctor. Doctors ever want you not to call doctor and then that's like woods at dock that's not would you dent this does not again not and that's what you would ultimately get a little bit nuts when together like doctorate in theology or something you know that's weird goalie is. I've always found that interesting because. Doctors earned that right to be called doctor to steal signs on the episode I know want to be humid doctors there was going to get far distant when far better looking in. But doctors when you get that doctor. You're hanging on that doctor and I guess rightfully so it's the you have eighteen years of schooling as you put in the work you earned that yet heard those two letters he acted sportswriters now. Generally yeah we do we don't get to throw Esquire on the end of our neighbor and it was I. In and especially now where you don't you basically don't even have to go to school do you mean you'll you'll have to go past fifth grade. Yeah in the newspapers are destined to that I school these activists are you doing for the blog. There on your way anyway the we. Promised. Though we still a low ball and surprises. Let's spent. All right Tim. This. Whereas you know and I'll wait if you could because this is a terrible this is a terrible construct because through should be power rankings. But I had the I had the wheel sound effects in in the hopper so I just feel like this is the time to break it out so let's just say. Bet you're number one. Tim bray and surprise of the Red Sox bullpen and lands exactly where you wanted where would be who is the number one's surprise that they edit gonna surprise you I'm gonna go with Craig Kimbrel did not size this guy's every. If you talk about a lot of guys have kind of Al performed little old by a little bit what we thought they could be Kimberly had basically two straight years of declining performance and in his comeback this year and in. As good as anyone in baseball is already worth more in terms of wins above replacement and he was last resorting to which is insane for reliever at this point in the season. So he's been. As dominant as we've seen a closer would be not to sue moss really across the league for sometime this goes back to encourage you are was retiring yet to some guys are right I remember looking Koji and when he was on that Ron people forget what that run he was on. It matched up with a Mariano I mean it really did. And now we're saying sitting here and it's the same sort of thing every bit. The strike out I know Koji structure crap load of guys I've there was not this many it was a it was a rescue as many as neatly and could he when he got his strike outs it was like three pitches it is a Cabral sometimes takes a fourth or fifth pitch. But the the other thing that I think separates him a little bit from you are at this point is that he's able to pitch a little bit more often. Is able to go you know more than one inning in a way that you are what we've seen them use I think five times for more than three this probably an unsustainable pace for him he's on pace to throw more than seventy innings he has done since going eleven. But this is the guy who they're they're using him more aggressively the navy's any closer in the past and he's he's answering the bell each and every time you go in I know that I get to. Into into it with Lou Maloney and Twitter. Passive aggressively every once in awhile about this by coming off though look do you burning amount your burning tomorrow. And and I go back to I have no problem with the way that John frozen using Kimbrel. Com most of the time Mike I think the Yankees the when he brought the Yankees game to face Stevie greet glorious in that I'm gonna get that extra out in the eighth inning. Why bother ST degree stories began of these right I'll take my chances without Barnes I'll take my chances there with Robby Scott whoever. Buy it but most of the time. I have no problem was that at all as long as an I think Farrell said after that game. As long as you have enough time before and you have enough time after arrest I don't know how you feel. Yeah I mean I mean Kimble is a guy who is more more so than most relievers even has been bred to BA closer is a guy who once he was drag it was closers like that your junior college. Once he was drafted it was to be closing the of the Braves used in almost exclusively in that role. Even in the major leagues that he's barely ever pitched in the seventh inning 'cause he got called up and was the closer with it like a month in Atlanta. Assume he's not used to Google as much as you know Alec Andrew Miller who has bounced around would be on in terms of coming in earlier gives that's why it's so important to say you know the six or seven and you called out and you say. If we're at the spot in the lineup in the eighth. We want you ready for that spot and so was communicated enough in advance is coming off a day or two abreast you give me day after if he goes four outs I think that you can manage it. Did that. Trade off is that you say what's bettered tees and for inning two straight days reason for 45 outs to. Tonight and not have them all and end of the problem would that yankees game also was that whole week you used him on rights though. That 88 if you had to pick one time where all of all the time zebra on the eighth inning that was really the only time I had any sort of issue. On yeah and and and then you talked about oh. Of the workload and pitches and busy and be able to sustain this. Well he bent I know he benches I don't know what he says after game because for average like goes lifts. But he is is bizarre. But I and it's giving Papelbon took a long time yours you are hard to his work out but it it didn't seem quite as thorough as can work if I just feel like I just feel like he's backed him late bench pressing like a no Hanley sitting there like. Yeah. Our I don't know I do it's it's got the vibe like I don't feel like there's a lot of rubber bands happened yet on the he's a resistance we're the guys tonight I'll. I don't know that he's doing the Chris L life is only about a reply is received is still full enough by the time we finishes so anyway. There was something else you'd bring up about camera by toll for now anyway this in the wheel again. And it's landing on him Britain's second big surprise which is why I edit a but you're taken as an I'll also ask you refuting the once you connect. The the second big surprise that is probably Robbie Scott being this good as your lefty specialist. And and I know they haven't used him out claiming he's been a lot of games but in terms of innings pitched he hasn't been up there really. But he's been about as good as you can expect any lefty specialist to be on this the guy who do you think back to spring training. He was supposed to be on the I 95 quarter all year long for us was really hoping to Iraq this was the guy who got called up last night to help out just in case anything happened. To Brian Johnston are yours notre mirrors -- laughed him in order of merit exactly which which you know wit and a bullpen that had two lefties in front of them and rotates that had so many lefties figured probably wouldn't be that valuable but he's obviously he's surpassed and I don't -- give bypassed this time around by the way he hits the day before it is better so sad trombone for now only news how many times you say you -- -- -- refuted my math I believe he's gone up and down nine or ten times woods and an a last year was the record is that we talked about how to drive back and forth from -- to McCoy that's nice. This is your journalistic integrity. Pipe to go back to start in and also we can pretty he can get right handed hitter so this is another thing they argue with little bow. Which is he's like well look in his arm slot it plays right in the right handed hitter so might the mark immediate response was little bit. It's them your boy Brad Ziegler isn't that exactly back after the lap in it's I'm not arguing that it's easier. You're right hindered. Robbie Scott's coming at you with that side armed delivery but he has shown the ability some more ability and I think we thought. Get right handed hitters out Emmys there he's been better Israelis and we saw Fernando Bob last year Tommy lane last year last couple years when he was with the team and remember Scott's not a guy who was bread is a lefty specialist utility was a starter for awhile. A who's a swing men and paternity last year his guy who made four inning appearances a fair amount AAA is used to facing us right handers beyond the and care about read everything you yet he was the DC you know you've got a doubleheader you start Henry Owens in the opener. In Ellis the rockets got up there isn't an attempt to eat some innings and four Brian Abraham the assistant farm director yes I understand you care about all your players. But you know what I mean you did you do not prioritized. Not running this guy this was basically like with a guy in the 2008 all star game George Cheryl. George shop he was the George Sherrill 2008 all star game my version. Of that whole thing which hears three innings you gotta get us through I don't care if you blow out your career it I don't care that you're in our division you don't agree to let it flow out of certificate. All right so you have Kim oh number one. Robbie Scott number two is the reason like I rather just sort of debate. We've what you're saying because I think all of these guys did. You can move them up and down and all around when it comes to this conversation. So I will be a T and I'll give you mindless but until then we'll spin the wheels once again. Our number three Tim. I think it go Heath Embry. As a guy who and I think the overall numbers. Don't play out how well he's pitched in the games that matter which is to say easier isn't like 37 or something but if you look at the individual outings. All of the bad ones are basically big he's come in and a two run game and is listed as five or six run game. Which you know I was not ideal but certainly better than coming in a two run lead and leaving it and in a two run deficit so I think in high leverage spots he's been very good overall yeah Ares. One something in those spots. So as a guy who who you know was probably going to be your seventh reliever when you're thinking in spring training you know the last guy who would be your swing men at times it's the fourth or fifth inning. If you needed to guide when when Palmer ensco short or something like that he's been a guy who's pitched in the seventh and eighth inning of close games from the right side and didn't. Pretty effective against lefties compared to where you. He's arrests made it I don't think he can do this entire year this is no knock on him. But I mean you this is the guys figured you keep saying oh my goodness again on my goodness again because he's the Phil say. He's the fail safe he's the sixth inning guy it's a seventh inning guy he's the guy where your head where your behind. Is not the is defined. As some of these other guys in. I just I can't imagine. You look up boy why his. It's worked well interview with the news report who have looked it up on Tuesday something like 63 innings and professionals and he's always are based on he's on racecars for seventy pluses and has 7070 plus appearances and you mentioned that the thing that a lot of fans don't realize about these guys in the workload is all the times are warming up and you don't get -- game and I've a patent it attractive but I would assume he leads the team and you know the dreaded dry humps we just get up in the third inning because David Price is struggling in the third. And he gets through six all of a sudden and and you might pitch in the seventh before and after he started getting warm that really wears on a guy overtime when we talk about. Whether any of these guys can sustain this for as long for the rest of the season because you've got you know Campbell mentioned is on pace for more than he's thrown in in six years and cameras on pace for career high. Barnes and Kelly are guys who. You are converted starters do you believe in the innings but result Kelly that they're being cautious with using him on consecutive days in a way that you would with you normally you don't think. You really abide without me saying you never won legally can dry out. You never about it you'd design on your audio podcast or do you ever say you ever gets that spicy. To say dry humps and we said drug house only. Okay and I was at I'd go to get this right at you promote your broadcast super to podcast. You know iTunes. Yeah it's actually under the Providence journal sports podcast on iTunes and change it too much defense dismay but we can be Brian and I recorded earlier today so it was about bull pens. Public sent a ball mainly this is free Thornburgh news that's when you recorded forty. Did you see that I really look forward to pilot thorn birds return and a couple of week stress that I think he'll be back on Friday Google Yahoo! calls whatsoever that you pushed back or via people getting confuses me throughout podcast. I'm not yet I don't think that's really making a mark in the Boston market older you couple. Or vice Versa and rule since it that say that hundred day. You know that the demographic the crossovers there you beat. Amid a baseball guy three burn bock. Though I don't know I think maybe you should do a joint project. The super to mess with you yeah exactly. The you know there's a lot of tension there I've noticed him I've I wanna bring unlike Jimmy car Jimmy Carter brokered peace agreement yes. So anyway. OK so we've got Jim and read guys Robby is not yet he found Revis in the wheel again. Who's number sort them I guess you put Barnes in the sense that he's you'll really. You surprised me is now one. I mean and boards has been good news is that a little bit better than expected. But he's been doing it in a role that I didn't expect you know I thought he'd be the seventh inning guy if not even seventh inning it kind of the back up seventh inning guy with Kelly in the seventh. Thornburgh in the absence Smith. You know Thornburgh Carson is that the data general in the ninth. But he's been the eighth inning guy for a pretty much the entire season by at this point. Has done a pretty good job with it and it's not as shut down easy inning time and time out but a compared expectations if you would into the season said Matt Barnes to be there is hitting after the first two and a half months how do you think this open looks I certainly wouldn't have let's see that's where we're sitting here doing I mean this is the reason with. And podcasts is being done isn't because there have been good ball and they have an unbelievable. And it's still. And it's we attempted this still doesn't feel that way. And I think they've Barnes is the perfect guy to sort of the poster boy a wide doesn't feel that way I know you have a degree year. It doesn't feel like when he's coming in the game that that's Israel locked down anything. Mean guy there's your what Tyler Thornburg that is where Carson Smith was supposed to be when they acquired him in. On and here's what are asking you. You OK you identified map aren't over Joseph Cali. I am still a little surprised. That they feel that way they'd realize that John Farrell feels that way. On par prioritizing barns over Kelly is wealth Kelly's parents yes definitely. Success does not surprise me that much it's and sexy been in and of a different fashion and I expect him because he's striking guys out the way he was the final you know September October of last year when did you name him LDS losing MVP. Yes and I don't know if it's irrefutable did he get a hundred dollar gift card to schools distinctive clothing and had a teacher and some nice slide. So its Achilles pits about as what I expected. May be a little bit better more consistent than I thought in but you know not strict in not as dominant as I would've thought coming into the season but it does seem like they're a little bit rare visit to give him. The opportunity as the eighth inning guy and me because back to it'll feel comfortable using him. Day in and day out the way to deal with Barnes is Barnes now has that year of experience under his belt from last season. But you know maybe deeper and out again the way it did you know last August parts that are really tough month I just don't like it is I think the the benefit of the doubt of trust with felony. It's just he's still hasn't waste ago. Athlete you go back to last September when he was pitching well on Bartlett was pitching terribly there was who's your eighth inning guy it's Matt Barnes. I just don't feel like the they are completely sold maybe there are now right now but the process to get there. Took a lot longer and a lot more from Joseph Kelly to get there and maybe some of these vivid did for map mark yeah late and I mean I was surprised me coming out of spring training that Barnes was the eighth inning guy over Kelly at that point because certainly Kelly didn't have a great spring training at the end with it didn't seem like enough to merit a demotion in the wake of Barber's injury you know we heard Furl does Hillary got it right image that was literally. I'm going to last week of spring training Kelly was the eighth inning guy he had about a couple bad outings and in Hoosier eighth inning guy in its its sort of map Barnes yeah I mean I remember last week whispering that the date Thornburgh when on the DL that there were in Bradenton. And then that night I talked to Tim Kelly after the game to reckless or the next thing about here's the new it's been and in three days later he was alone won't think they also know it was. He's the eighth inning guy but he was the guy was sort of you losing by three runs in the sixth inning. Knew he was three or four runs in the sixth inning he was demoted weighed down the list. Because this go back to the beginning of the season missed one of the things I think John Farrell deserved credit for which is you have this mishmash of guys and you're able look disorder now. Why matching up and and identifying who it where a lot earlier that I think a lot of people thought. Was going to be the case because we thought. You'd Matt Barnes. Are you Robbie Ross and having you were counting on him to be seventh anybody even get a terrible spring training you want the same. Who else was in the Iraq via I give broker for us. He was on the Robbie Scott train early early I mean before probably the rest of that in Scott didn't have an outstanding spring training that he I think the RA with something like zero lead gave up much to base runners per inning. And got out of distance Jesus carried it over to the regular season where he gets out of and other peoples to answer for them the and and you know basically pass Ross and about in spring when we were looking for my forgetting anyone and I mean you know league beat UMass for entering this pretty much the same guys and if Fernando bodily impaired like the month. Into the season. Kelly lake says he was pushed down Robbie Ross has pushed up. Henry was maybe considered like that other eighth inning guy a little bay and now he's the Jack of all trades might. And we every meantime though. He's the okay Thornburgh even with Thornburgh and we found a thorn birds out for the year. Thornburgh. With a guy even at the beginning of the season was our QB American couple weeks maybe a month right today in a million native Mitt Mason went what you thought he supposedly back before. Oh David Price little Carson Smith well and then you know the one point I think they were sort of linked together him in our assessment Foley. People rooting gather the developments in distance together indicts. All running the same way. And then it is a constant Smith is by the way enough amount and Tyler Thornburg and he's in ninety feet to the fiftieth consecutive day. It was bizarre but it certainly I think they were counting on even abuse a year counting on Thornburgh by the time you hit the middle of June the beast something right. Yes and that's what it you know you feel a little bit more comfortable going to Gaza Barnes and embryo as often as they have early in the season you Kimbrel for extra outs. If you think you're gonna have help in the second half in the form of Thornburgh and Smith and now you're not a sure you'd you'd lost one of those guys for good and Smith is a guy who's still. Coming off a a year and a half of not pitching you don't know if he can be and how does islet that's. How often and he I mean this Carson Smith makes me a thing makes me uncomfortable it does. It is and we're gonna find out more I know he's been checked out on Friday. And he possibly still could pitch and attack this weekend I guess but it does say he does this say he checks out okay he comes back. People are expecting him to do anything. It EUU you have that the ultimate ease and and this is where you might you will be trouble because if he pitches well the first time. You know the manager is all well you know he's pitching well the first time we can be a 122 time and a third time it's a it's a Dicey situation. Yeah I think you've got to look at him as icing on the cake you look at another guy who's is coming back from Tommy John and Carter caps yeah San Diego Kirk have started his rehab assignment in April. Yet still we just got taken out his rehab assignment and optioned pitcher Blake is he's not ready yet no don't you think you've got sixty days rehab as a Tommy John Guy that's new this year it's at a thirty. And Carter have exhausted the sixty days and still isn't ready so that is tells it like this is not and we got used to be ten to twelve month. Return time period for pro Gaza Tommy John and it seems like now things are being a little bit more conservative taking kind of the John Lackey approach which is. You yet a done against you get a full eighteen months and you know. We're seeing guys go fourteen months fifteen months a little bit more consistently and I and the results in better when they do come back. Yeah well that's the thing he pitches in the pocket every month ago it's going to be elected president if the times and come back now need you should take the time if you are an all star break if you want artist. It doesn't make it different because guess what they're managing without him. And in the most important thing here's maybe how you look at the Carson Smith situation. Is trade deadline. Find out what he is by the time you have to make animal. Right yes you find out what would you can trust him for you outside July 31 whether you need another guy or or whether you're good with what you got. Should recently in the real again are we exhausted all the options are also from the real again because even if you can't think of one if you already mentioned Joseph Kelly with the elderly mile then I mean it's too we go surprise and a negative direction. I mean is that Robbie Robinson yes because it it's that Ross as a surprise for me of the Austria as I turn my nose up at these. I'll be my sixth surprises of Madrid the Pacific and guys so I think you're I think you're ready you're you're surprised as far far too inadequately. Now it's I think that it. I looked at him in spring training in Emilia and they kept saying earlier easy in you're using image toward the end. You still weren't using yen in new velocity wasn't there are now. I know he got his loss yup a little bit about when he was really good last year he was like out of nowhere in 95. And then I can't imagine that somebody do it him being really good. Probably yeah velocity generally has yeah. Strong relationships. 02 Kelly dialed it back in Saint Louis it was magic. OK so here's the surprise is it the guys who have been up and down. And we talked about this ball and how good has been and is as we've seen here over when he innings without giving a run. The guys who have called up like the Ben Taylor's of the world. Most recently the last gas going you know in in means saving them. That than. That's how little you know where guys are called up and make this kind of pick up the slack he keep doing what you're doing which is important because. Because they can't keep running these guys out like they happen to have. We forget a guy we toll free got a guy we have forgotten a guy who should be in the top four. Don't you think so. Are you talking about a bog no. Playing border. Policy and you know what corner has to be in the top 4008 I mean. Blaine Boyer it's been interesting to watch because it's it's I mean he's a guy who's who's succeeded despite like never surety anyone out in of the past couple years. And now I think is with this like 17 and easier is like 24 so we'll see how long it lasts a not. I'm not on the the blame wagon as so to speak about him getting you know seventh and eighth inning looks that much more consistently but in terms of a better eating innings and being that picture right hander that they needed he's an illegal drug bills apart drug Brandon Workman. Right yeah I mean it and obviously he's still here you know and I know I nobody immune like this it did I'll be on aside it may mule and comfortable how much Ferrell had fallen in love with amounting. Mean this he was putting him in semi important spots in my employer really. I thought he was just the guy is the use like the Kyle Kendrick of the bullpen yet you're the guy who come in in blood in the Alaska spot last night and give you as much he could and then get sent down the next day the now so we were totally forgot about blamed or I mean. Really price tag here in April 1. It would not be surprised we've got a local employer yet and I don't think he was in the organization that put these things so when we get to when we get the U argues first. You think are asked this question first three Tim Britton. We do you think they'll make a move burly pitcher. Yes these everybody makes it goes out late. And it's a follow is like what type of relief pitcher I think they make a move for. I think they got it might see tonight and pat the sec is the kind of guy a look at that that serves a very specific role in the Vista the present oral. Against right handers. Who's having might be an all star this year based off I was pitching is Jerry's under one night as the guy that the Phillies I don't think they're gonna be asking for a huge amount back Dave's got it in real lot four. Last year's so you I don't have to give up you know a top ten prospect he don't have any more the sub A Brothers to trade that for reliever dollar. The web might be guided that fits into these seventh and again that's why I don't know what you. Talked about on your soup to podcasts. This is the things it. You're not being on the Dombrowski said that's your running out of guys. So you're talking about Aaron Hill trade spreads the betray them him to me the president would trip last year with these past it was as Estonia by far elected there's no complaints about Patrick whoever but that's the sort of guys that you're going to be giving up when he said that this hobby Brothers TV so you get to. On the trade deadline if you're gonna take out you can take out of play employers are Blaine Boyer but you can take out of Blaine Boyer. And I were placed him with a guy whether he wants the righty specialist. Oregon your guide or may not. Put the ball on the ground. At the double play great that's there is that is a legitimate weapon right that is. That is even if it's for one batter you'd need that guy is to me. For the end of the bullpen is worth caring that yeah I mean if you look at knows at what didn't update here except Maine is for losers in Saint Louis maybe he's I don't I don't know what his status as the royals of these guys might be dealt but the end of that guys is really useful for for teams in the later innings anything else surprised about the spokesman. Well if you extend its a minor leaks. That you're looking at me askew. Farrah Farrah love those guys who says that analog pad like in my head I don't know why. That's and then Taylor but paralleled those of the job that guys like Taylor Austin Maddux discuss called up. Today Jamie Callahan. And those guys didn't spring training and you you like that. They've carried it over to the regular season those guys in the has been moved up to AAA. In the case of of Callahan and and I'd bud tree who was at a pretty big he was the Alex surf of a couple of years ago in terms of a drought and what they signed a big bonus should be. If at and has been moved to the bullpen and blah blah blah but has pitched well this year and looks like a guy who might be halted to do something for you so that gives you hope not just for the bullpen this year but if you're looking longer term you've got some options from the right side. That maybe these guys can be good for you next year be the next line of a Barnes and Emory. I think. If you talked about and I broached this month I was sitting around thinking about it. But MVP and now come back your number one guy in number one's surprise Craig Kimbrel. And we can talk about the entire bullpen did the right now they all think they all have their their spots and and their store defining as they go but this whole thing is based on Kendall Kimbrel gets hurt. It's the receipt from mediocre. To lessen mediocre bullpen I think. Because you just don't have that gap I mean I don't know maybe aren't hurt Kelly emerged could emerge into a close or I don't know by. Campbell's the guy that makes this whole thing work. And in not only makes it work because he's great in ninth inning but makes it work with in this be honest. They've been able to sort through some of these games and get through some of these gains because Kendall has done what he's done in the eighth inning. The generals. The straw that first drink them and you can sell out to get too long because it is not worried about. A we need to have someone behind him in case something happens you know you can you can use your guys and sell I'll let them know you get to the ninth inning you know Italy beat Kurt Campbell for for three or four outs you're you're pretty much good to go so I didn't pay off my teas a while I was sitting around thinking about this must sit around thinking about it because I was thinking is this the MVP of the game. And people and I was figures and data rate Chris Sale. Of course no one's. 80% of people. Sale. But I could make this very strong argument that Craig Kimbrel is more importantly Chris I'll make it. Challenger impairment. Sure go ahead keep he's more important than the Chris at Chris L gets hurt if you GAAP other guys they have potentially other guys who can step up. MB even Eduardo rotary and David Price reports now. And through soreness in troop farmlands. Bomb you guys guys who step up not be Chris Sale but pick up that's lack. Where I don't think they have that. Guy was going to be a crate in a mean. I'm not an argue that can really valuable as a still excels in more valuable for a rotation that has struggled to eat innings at times that you know you know in the same way that you can sell out because gambles and it protector in the ninth. You know the day before the day after cell pitches that you can usual little bit more aggressively he's gonna do you. You know six and most likely seven plus when he was up isn't this awesome since April he's the exhibit that's settled on what may I I even brought up that argument now but did they are still winning every time you pay it back out I'm not really sold on my whole crowd Kimbrel the MVP. But I think you could conversation anyway I think it's worthy that's how good you would never say that about a close there. Compared to 81 of the best starters in the American League that's how we import years I'm still must question you to him. If besides audio. For us which question you want the baseball question of the high school yearbook questions. We'll start the baseball the FaceBook question. It is. Are they going to be able to do this. Oddly because one of the things that we keep bringing it up atheist can't keep doing this and keep keep doing this says he said. Stars a lot of starters aren't going very long you're using Camry a lie. In his six inning. Are they go in your opinion do you believe they keep feelings LT they'll be able to keep doing this which is what you. 25 ERA or better than that at this stage of the season I think you know I don't think we'll see what we saw last slow late to lie in early August when it was a tire fire every night. Add out of apple and that there really try to piece together the eighth inning on a nightly basis you know who's gonna come out the door open. But I'd at. So I only to be as good as they are now and only to be as bad as that I think it they probably will need some shoring up in July it will spend a lot of time in July talking about relief pitching because we do that every year agreement regardless of probable and is. But it this one will probably need that that little extra kick whether it's Karstens that.