#DORK 71: The Staircase

Dale & Keefe
Thursday, June 21st
Rich Keefe is joined by the #DORK resident attorney Nicole, to discuss the true crime Netflix documentary, The Staircase. Did Michael Peterson kill his wife? Spoiler free to start followed by a full spoiler breakdown. Twitter: @DORKpodcast
01:02:08

Transcript - Not for consumer use. Robot overlords only. Will not be accurate.

If the door to. Martinez. Is the door to my email which cheek if the door. Montana has there is my dorm blonde cash. It's a bonus episode of that sect or this week my name is rich chief and we are joined this time not by Ryan Davey but by our resident hash tag dork attorney also my sister in law in the call McCall how are you. And and Larry I'm very excited to talk about this the show this setting show the staircase. Now now expect it when did you first hear about it because you. Knew about away before I ever did. Yak until I heard about it I cameraman I would say. 2002000. Allowed then maybe a little bit later. But and there was only the first part with only the first thing I think he episodes. And it was all on line and I watched it way back back. Yeah because there was it's a Netflix advertised it does look confused eggs is like a bonus episodes of a lot never even heard this target is the second season like what what are we doing here but you said that they came out earlier as a watching it you can understand because. It starts all the way back in 2001. So they had something and they thought the story was pretty much done and it wasn't so this is spoiler free so for those that haven't seen it yet. Reserves sort of let you know what it's about. Essentially you have. A man in North Carolina who's a writer and he finds his wife dead at the bottom of the stairs hence the staircase. And it turns into it wasn't an accident or did he murder right that's pretty much the story. Did you like it. I did. I like it when I got it right so I had seen it before I. Making a murder and managing. Actually I recommend it are with my ligament of the pots. You're away and didn't didn't you eat. I could edit it and go back and listen pictured actually done that I work for a count. And that's so I'd into the forces cute shows. And I think. Expanded well produced I think it making murder that jinx I think it's it's well done for what it is inside I didn't. I think they have more access in this one and in the sense that. It's it's not one sided and they're talking they're they're spending time with the prosecution they're spending time with defense the spending time with the defendants that just they're spending time with his whole family. Again tell you the whole story where is making a murder I think did that a little bit uranium might have been a little bit better produced it looks more like Hollywood quality. But I think it was really of the side that like they're trying to make him look innocent where's this is like. You're not really sure what's going on but this also the you get a very different perspective. Than some making a murder let's let's FiOS Steven Avery made up the smartest guy gone right out right there right. This guy Michael Michael Peterson and much different you know he's he's a writer he's he's very well educated end but in a similar situation where there's a lot of evidence against them there's evidence you know where it looks like he's innocent. But I thought. He's compelling character very different than both William Avery and are not with Steve Avery and doubt Robert durst. It is very much so and I think that and the other differences it did you get it you get from the very beginning from from land. Right after. You know and hit his quite a son dead. Up until the end of the trial and so I think it's really unique and they eat it but kept up close and personal lot act or what it's like to be on trial. What goes into. Defending yourself and a child situation and I don't think the other documentaries do and I think that they're really served unique piece. Film because of. I think they're all worth watching. This might be. There are up I got sucked in the making a murder real quick you need an episode along Pamela long time dork as a member that we did that a law when Mac came out. That was really did we didn't do want on the jinxed but I did enjoy that. This is this is pretty in depth notice it's thirteen. Episodes they're all between 4555. Minutes so there there's a lot but. It didn't take very long to get through it and I can't imagine that for you here now. What would you do it if you're if you're gonna give it a score we do the dorks or one through six Greg is zero through six knowing what it is obvious it's hard to compare to you know the Iraq Iraq but how would you compare to say. The other. You know true crime documentaries. Epic that and I am gonna break it happened at you know. Yeah please. The initial one through eight or whatever. The upper all of one I think this you know an ordinary day after day it. I would guess that probably six attack and it probably get the last one for. Yeah that makes cents and then so would you give it a five altogether than. Probably yeah I think outcry unified again I watched it altogether but they're really it's not only is our time jump but there is just a different feeling would the later episodes you know yeah I saw. That's why both thought or is there anything else non spoiler we can say about those probably not I don't think yeah I just because I. I hate spoilers and I think almost anything is the spoiler so I I think that's pretty much the story if you if you like those other kind of true crime. Documentaries. Or do like the podcast cereal or things like that you're gonna be fascinated by this is a lot of discussion to have but there're wanna. Tip you off too much of that's that's the crux of it it's a it's a more well to do guy in this time did he kills leopard that he now that's the throwing it right. All right here regardless spoils and we. It's. Okay. That's a spoiler alarm. That the by that. So that the first question before you answer the question a question essentially as did Michael Peterson killed his wife Kathleen Peterson that's the whole. Premise of the entire thirteen episodes so let's start with the reasons why it was Sam or could be him and we use chemical back and forth that's it. And and again. Where not jurors were watchers so this isn't just what was brought in court this is everything whether it's something shady you thought he said in an interview or it's just hard evidence that they had on trial. What would be things that would point you in the direction of why it was him. Lot so I had to do pretty tired argument that. He died. He is an odd duck. You kind of narcissistic yet something off about him. His reaction and emotions don't seem appropriate. At certain times and he just. Doesn't beat you idol and what that could see the what was. Nearly one. It was crazy and I agree that it was at that early on like the first episode. Yet they're sort of setting up what it is and the first thing you debt is like you interview with him in his house publicly admit is that the guy that they think. Killed his wife works like it up pocket over the house and like I hit ball but just the way. The way he was going about it and used walking you through it. Like I have never even imagine put myself in that situation I don't know what kind of things I would say are award I would do. But I think there're few. That I would it says it for so one thing that jumped out to me was. They're they're all going through elected knights of the news or the you know the events that happened that night. And his two adopted daughters Martha and Margaret they got home. I believe so the first thing that dad said to him was it wasn't me right which. I'd say I'd like your mom felt on the stairs like if that's how about your mom had an accident I would never even think that they thought it was opening. Exactly and then one Sunday older and Todd when he showed he was there before the police. There's so many things. I felt really strategy and that makes Todd and marijuana implicated anybody but just Todd Todd also awed and emit large Mars that is dad. But he was there very early and I'm like that's an eyebrow raised for me. And I had them so I I went full disclosure act that you have much different out after the Olympic team out there and I. And I haven't been recently. Almost a suspect. I've telling yeah I I thought he Wallach afterwards that it Gamertag jumping around but it's either accident it's either Michael Peterson did it we have another theory that we introduced that's making the rounds on the Internet right now and they like. Just or even a true or is another person. I don't know I think Todd kind of stinks like I don't know if I feel great that it wasn't him. Exactly or he was at least there. Actor but he knows more yet as he was planning on it he refused to be interviewed by the police the entire time so he was never interviewed a little. That if suspects. I also thought all the blood like I know they went through it and friends X is a huge part of it in the blood splatter and yet some people on the stand that are. Do you make stuff up others are more compelling like there's a lot going on there and I guess they can sort of tied up but when you just think of somebody falling down the stairs. In this very graphic like this is they show you you literally sneaked athlete's body would the police KM they show you that footage which is protect. That's the the first or second episode recollect I essence it's the tenth. It is an open close look you a crime and the trial afterwards. If there are a lot of black eye I don't understand that never fallen on the there's like that and it's. Does every her tragic obviously but I don't understand all of these different beliefs and her head it makes absolutely no sense to me. I don't understand how she had her had that many times that hard. From a fall. Yeah and like write like the pattern. And that's a big part of the trial is obviously in. You know looking at the marsh is you have stalled fractures so. They kept going on the defense team was that while C she wasn't like bless you could have been bludgeoned to death Micah. You know fit of passion or whatever and I. Yeah I don't know maybe she still could've been like so you're convinced she felt that the stares at both like it'll look like all right yes I don't know about the NC to help anybody. Now it and a the blow poke they drove me nuts I don't understand that I understand why they just stayed the silent missing and then became. Then this apartment prosecute yes they they they searched the house. They that local content in one picture and it wasn't there and they just automatically assumed that that was still up. Like I've seen a lot of TV and movies that I've you don't fall a handful of you know. National court cases I've never seen them say this isn't the murder weapon but it something like this it was like yeah. To write a letter out to do this right likes it that had to be something exactly like this. They'll like holding in front of the jury they'll like you see this right here that this is an it done but but something that is got a brother of this is what did it. He liked yet may be aware is that and then they find it later on and that is that the whole thing was just very strange. It was very strange it was very very strange start what else what else makes it look like. The affair. Still at it so for me it wasn't so much that he lies. Bisexual yup. It was that he was actually seeking out to have affairs outside of his marriage. And if she had found out about that that could then. Something that led to. A drunken fight and they were both. So intoxicated they were let out a lot intoxicated and I think she's gonna have yeah well what was he did you know they were test. And then she had an Italian letter system and so and it with 2 o'clock 1 o'clock in the morning. And one of the epic that they are numbered and with their cases different well. She got she had sent an email at midnight and at and they covet this decade and so it's timeline. And as you resilience his computer because she left her work. And so she could have found something on his computer. Come down confronted him. And they've gotten into an altercation. Which I think it makes a lot more since then my following him there. Yeah I'm not I'm I don't see the fog on the stairs but then Mitt but they are surprised the defense team never. You and Eric are if you think that the wounds are from stairs like why did he push for downstairs but could that right also have Bentley and that never really got brought opera is not narrowly enough. But I'm what did I. I'm on strange. They also they taken at his word that there are at the pool. And they run that ridiculous. Scenario where they have the taped lady screaming for help a I episode dollar of that first ball. It's his word that he's outside no secret of murder like all he got a better outside. Right and everything to it it was like 2 o'clock in the morning grin if they weren't North Carolina but it was December and they averaged amateur I think Catholic. 55. Degrees. The good points that's that's where I also what. So any short and it shall what are you doing out at a crack in the morning. I don't know though EMT's got there and they said every all the blood was really dry. And so we heard the Bible one calls and have a couple of home eighties freaking out but you wonder how quickly. He did that if they get there that was dry and I think those are the jumped out to me. It is as he. Because obviously when the police get there they look at the scene in the video evidence everything. And what he's doing that interview when we first see him and he's walking around his house and he goes into the family room this is an odd thing and maybe this isn't for everybody but I I picked up on this. He said. That they were eating dinner there and they just left they left the the plates in the family room and make up one outside. If you have a dog. Which I do if he does. You know right leave your boot you can't leave your plates like alt in the field are on the dog's gonna licked them clean. Right so like I I think what happened was there could have been an argument and the plates were still there. Then perhaps he murdered her and then by any obvious he's gotta go clean up the plate so that when the police come he has the putt that was part of the story that the plates of the other. Right it doesn't make a lot of Nat at a lot of what he says doesn't make a lot of sense and I also talked quietly to detect them up. Yet you haven't yet right o'clock in the morning. Yeah doesn't work you're just gonna leave the plate. Yeah I don't know at that so go back to the the bi sexual part which is a big kind of breakthrough for the defense that came out and as the second episode an op at the house or is that each episode early on I TV something else that what was going on and so that the bisexual part of it was. He was very ambiguous as far as what how much Kathleen knew. And right in the later episodes he pretty much comes clean is that she didn't know. No she didn't know it all and he was that wolf she is aware of it it would be aware of it but she's there's an understanding of that other wasn't that they're clear now they're definitely wasn't that's the day he'd he'd lied about it we already know he's a liar. Because right the guy who is in Vietnam and then he got injured is that all the war injuries but no wasn't. Right center that get a purple heart any lie keeping it would didn't rent from mayor lied about having a purple heart yes yeah I ran for mayor and he lied about I think the injury and then maybe also purple heart so. That's the war. Amid the worst part is lying about what happened in the war that's horrible like yeah you're right him being bisexual who cares but the fact that his wife. Didn't know about it that's clearly a motive for a big argument and something else that happened. And they clearly had an image that they wanted to present to people. Yeah and the other thing that I find a little fishy. You know couple of your friend with a perfect. No trust that everything you could go to any length you could eat every but everybody has the Serb Tony. Oh they were perfect they were that was the lives they left on the time definitely lends itself perfectly ever but he called her mum even there at one. There was so many things that I don't like this that it can't be that perfect date with that many kids are around that same age all living in the same house. He's dapper. Ed when I think it was Margaret or mark those talk about early on the youngest on its use saying how how beautiful their relationship as those like. That's weird and out I would weird who'll have X and would describe their parents well I don't know maybe some people I wouldn't but does this upheaval at it that's more about me that about that a lot of up. The other thing that was pretty crazy Nicole was so is that the first step city inches beak that what's going on then they're like always by sexually a there's another element to it. And then it. How about when he was living in Germany. And his friend and the mother of Margaret Martha was also found dead at the bottom of a staircase. That doesn't say. That's contained and even backing up a step further the waves. His relationship with that woman was strange. Which woman all all the that idea I'll brag that route left yeah Brett Ratliff yet Ratliff right now. It was like her husband died and he just stepped in and became. Surrogate father and husband to that Italy even though his weight and so in reliving next door. Pretty bright as that is like like yeah. That night she died. He was at her house talking and her children. Yeah and Emerson lake and their two children went home. But it is don't think I mean. But it seems so odd to me and then the other thing that really small point but when he was walking around the kitchen and pulling out glasses. And shelling Margaret Margaret is that the belong to their mother yet and how she used to collect these pieces. And he was with her when she was collecting these pieces. Are. They have they had collateralized of I just couldn't figure out. I don't think he killed her. The first on yeah I don't I think what happened was he saw. That she was dead agency has never see it all kinds of like brain a brain Anders emerges like brain issues right of the brain heart right yeah something and I think she died bears and I think. He saw. Okay they saw they came back of stairs ecstatic stairs to kill him and I think he used that for Kathleen. The users are owner might not motivated necessarily by or inspired whatever word you wanted to whatever you wanna put on I think you saw that it was like. Oleg evaded asking me questions there was no criminal case or anything like date they today people fought on the stairs. That's I think happened. Under that hair. Though all it might not even about an affair by the amendment that by everybody and on about it. No I tell the other what the other wife there the ex wife who popped up a few times. That she likes him and on May be never this. She. Is and that she is bizarre she's both people that you meet that day. It seems that their their living on a different planet in the sense that we think different planet just like they like they could relate she's probably never ever seemed like a sports game she's never seen like. And a movie that's not like a really serious documentary or like on old French film like she's just speaks to these huge words like Gillick and you're not from here. And he's he's in the third person yeah well strange. Like. There are some business sense while you probably field. This. Lot are you it would increase the Seattle the case. And the kid when he when they got divorced they don't look to America was and and she stayed in Germany the whole thing is gonna be right maybe it wasn't. Maybe he affair you haven't. Oh without woman maybe was to be what then maybe the known. I did wonder if I mean she did have she was wealthy Margaret marked as mother yeah yeah. And he got a lot of might. Should let the kids and. Yeah I well are initially it was to both of them like right there right and then they get a divorce and and the kids ended up going with him and Kathleen. Right today is actually really helpful that one scene wins the defense attorney. He. Which one was it's not the main guy out wrong on that run the garlic the mustache like yet air. At him in one of one of the other people did like a holes family tree one episode. Now right helpful that they're elected in the names of ability here in the remote career than over here than you Seattle's on the film is enormous but they're all you know again. One biological kid here to adopt two kids here to like you know half brother whatever it is of what that meant that that was helpful. Opt to other quick things for me that reasons why may have done it while you could probably talk yourself and either way with the not what one calls that they were kind. That those. As a over the topic like you're acting on time he and it's two different ones and there are different. Bright and he did this interview. Right after he would is. Coming out of court one day at a rate the very beginning. Where he made this statement is as. I said. Captain's name. A million times on my heart. Those of the of the different ones. Yeah it did you'd eaten yet you think it is dedicated can anyway. He also I don't know Yeltsin a weird thing at that and or you're talking about. I think you're referring to is being bisexual or gay or ever at the end and he says something about. You know when you get away with something for so long in the nobody knows about it but all I was thinking about was like you talk about murdering them. Right but that's right you see leaders or like confessing but. I don't know I on set to go back and forth. Like early on at but it definitely did it that there's a committal forum like you know maybe he did in it and by the and I counsel are before you answer that though. GM any reasons why. It wasn't him or couldn't happen. Because it. How to make this less bows like I'm like oh I'm not really sure how I feel and then I had so many more for why it was then why wasn't. But why it wasn't I don't know that the stairway it was really narrow like I was those of the crap stairway right. Right at the arraignment hero she had Italian minister and she's been drinking right yes that's. I think that they never identified him a murder weapon and I think. In the injuries were strains and that she had all these blows to her head. But no hairline fracture and yet there is no listen up very strange and so. And the blood spatter but there was no cat knocked out hi I didn't. And but it. I don't know that there are so focused on like these death blows with a instrument from a pool like king of late. Choked her or like hater than through word on the stairs or something like out there and hitting go to that they're that well there's no weapon and they didn't fractured skull that it couldn't have been a person article. On loan and the could've done. It could have been great and so yes. At the blood yet the blood that are strange I just think that we never really. They were never able to really answer why. Yeah I think that I think her finding out that he was having gay affairs would be the most likely reason. And then her maybe threatening to leave them or threatening to tell people are threatened or who knows that I don't wanna stay with winds up to but something like that and then he snapped. And he does Juliette is also a little bit of a breakthrough not that I think it's the end of the world that parents like spank their kids like that happen all the time trust me but. For it was kind of revealing when there Ehrlich. You know dated they asked as solid did he ever hit you they're like yeah. And Geico -- late Thursday they painted not to be that this really nonviolent guy at first admitted that while he was in the war like he had his kids that you know like in America I think there have been a little bit of a violent streak tomorrow. And even narcissism as free relay is what about him. And it even through this entire filming you can see he kind of got off unlike the fact that he felt like easily been listener attention. In the way he felt like I. He hit a smoking his pipe I thank my. Like your carrier TV character now here a movie character witnesses for the yeah. Annie Annie felt like he lies right and then with the two girls. I'm the two adopted daughters. And their service and infatuation. With him. It was weird I think he and in just his personally for quite at that Leesburg to pearl had been traumatized by the depth of their. Parents and he'd take them and with the site. Figure like complex that they. That it it appears that they kept the whole time. Yeah I don't know I you know seriously and then I guess Hillary's are really in this case they were authority got like a lot of money like there was not legs. You know thought she had all the money and like with no other cases where we've seen the not only our why don't we see dead. So this is what he kind of left out was they were having some financial problems because her company's stock. Had gone down and Michael had not worked for two and a half years and she was the sole bread winner out of Vermont. And she had. One and a half million dollar life insurance policy attorney. OK so with the statements that are reds missed that. I don't. I'm having trouble because of where I thought but I got pretty shirt. It they did that if the prosecution mentioned. But like insurance policy whether or not to mention he has our. For two years and the other thing. That I saw on the Internet can say that now and oh yeah yeah yeah have that. Is that Michael Peterson and that eating one of the producers. On mister K. Really. Well that's. Boy or girl. Now the thing up. Well now let me introduce this for the other reasons why he didn't do it this is what's been making the rounds recently and actually came out awhile ago but. Now at fair but he has seen the documentary something that is left out entirely. From the documentary. Is the owl theory. The Al theory allow me to read some from Wikipedia dot award. In 2009. There's a new theory and Kathy Peterson's death that was raised that she had been attacked by an owl. Outside. Fall and after rushing inside and have been knocked unconscious after hitting her head on the first tread of the stairs the Al theory was raised by Dermot tourney. He Lawrence Pollard a neighbor of the Peterson was not involved in the case but had been following the public details he approached the police suggesting and Powell might have been responsible. For their reading that the North Carolina State bureau of investigation evidence list. In finding eight other listed. Peterson's attorneys have determined that the as BI crime lab report was that a microscopic how old father. Today would in this liver from a tree limb entangled in a clump up there that have been pulled out by the roots found clutched in Kathleen left hand. A reexamination of the hair in September 2008 and found two microscopic owl feathers. That's pretty it's saved but I kinda. I've kind of in on the Al theory. Now I think there's a good chance. All right Pollard did not speak of the feared anyone else that Durham herald son newspaper published article ridiculing him and discrediting its theory other media picked it up. Which later criticized as an accurate advocates of this theory assert that other evidence supports that namely. The scalp wounds worked fry loads in Bayard consistent would marks left by talents the feathers are similar to those on Al feet. Cedar needles were found on her head and body indicating tapping at followed over outside shortly after before entering the house. That are blood spattered up the staircase rather than down a better footprints in her own blood indicated that she was already leading before she reached the foot of the stairs. And that two drops of her blood were found outside the house on the front walkway along with a finger smear on the front door consistent with their pushing the door shut. Advocates also note that our attacks on people are common in that area. With one victim stating that the impact of similar to being hit in the head with a baseball bat. If the mop fine. Now according to Pollard had a jury and present this evidence it would of materially affected the deliberation and their forward movement. Materially affected their ultimate verdict. Prosecutors have ridiculed the claim and doctor Deborah radish who we see in the film. Who conducted capping tears and not copy autopsy says it's unlikely that an Powell or any other bird could have made wounds as deep as those on our scalp. However doctor Rauch is opinion with challenge rather experts in three separate affidavits filed 2010. Doctor Alan van Norman wrote quote the multiple wounds present suggests to me that an owl and missed Peterson somehow became entangled. Perhaps the Allah that tangle that her hair or perhaps she grabbed the owls foot. Doctor Patrick seem Redick a professor of veterinary medicine at the university Minnesota wrote quote. In my professional opinion. The hype of hypothesized attack to the face and back of the head resulting in the various punctures lacerations visible in the autopsy photographs. Is entirely with in the behavioral. Repertoire. Of large owls. Yeah but nothing like him if he'd been outside okay basic and scream. Right. White in my cockpit and air. I yes. I didn't owl competitor header and a silent. You kind of poked holes in the Al theory if it wasn't now why do Michael Pearson say it was now. Mean and eat that she would have been screaming. Or anybody who gets dive bombed by a berg yelled so they may be and maybe not everybody that I can present and scientifically but. May be Michael wasn't home maybe he was having a gay love affair any team home and she was dead. And rather and that he had a hit a present the story because at that at that time is trying to hide the fact that he was out governor fair and maybe. Maybe. You writing off the Al theory. Yeah I just don't think she attacked by now I do think it's strange that article I'm proud parent their hand I don't understand that in an hour and she also had. Irate cartilage damage. Which has consistently straight strangulation. Yet that they really go without either it was all public bludgeoning on the head another one about strangulation or what about pushed down the stairs but they. Kind of left that out that yeah I'm surprised. Maybe they think the Al periods those stupid but. The owl theory was presented we gave you the dates there are sort of in between filming they they filmed you know all worn out tools three whatever Ozal for for the early episodes. Then they came back his so Liz while they were filming the data and even they didn't bring enough but brilliant brain. All right so yeah or or both kind of leaning towards Michael Peterson. Yeah and it it I. Walking through everything and all that changed when you add. If players defect it was actively China has an affair. Like a around the time. And you red eye on those emails it's a breath oh my god as very graphic very intense and very competent. Very confident in his ability yeah. And and very confidently sharing that confident though sure like detail there lot. She felt OK so. If his wife found them yeah she been. I would think so yeah oh yeah pray I get adamant that you would not. It's had a couple glasses of wine. Hanging out you're. Struck out from work you caught yours to do you now and certainly you'd find these email from your husband to. A male escort and been. Yeah he's really done that before. Well that what's crazies or that other guys that he had slept with. And defense got a hold of momentarily today he said ego like guys like a pepper ever in Michael's like kids. Elect to his voice gets Ohio heat. They at this season was going on the season as the series is going on I felt like his voice got higher and higher but that is really more to that when he was presented with something. His voice would get like ten octaves higher is late and a day and you like that but you did. Like right the guy told the truth if so are you like about the smell like he does he bends the truth a lot or just straight up lies a good amount. Right and I think if is an hour that they conduct the planet and themselves. But I'll still. Pretty surprised by the verdict is because based off of everything we saw in courts like that the court they don't have the advantage of seeing the weird interviews that he does it like. Regularly is that in here for him at all in fact he would take the stance so. You don't hear him and get the sense but the first thing we said it's he's odd they don't know that they have no idea they just hear what what people are saying up there. I'm sure especially North Carolina they hear about the bi sexual stuff in their little like there are probably more turned off about it than than others would be. Right handed out no one yeah that's also true. And oh by the way public some of the jokes that the defense attorneys for making. Al Arab let me that he can't do that this certainly in 2008 team like they were like right in front of Michael Peterson to limit Michael Peterson's brother they're like laughing about it. That attack Rudolph was like pretty crass that a bunch of seeds used like. Well well they need to do accused liquidated the socket and elect what are you a smaller public what are doing like this this is that right right. So I Al and back to that how I I also think to that point if you work hard again today and eat. I don't know that it a judge would only allow any evidence of murder in Germany. For. The it's some of the homosexual evidence. Yeah in fact I think judge Orlando brown RO Olindo Hudson was there for the entire day which is pretty funny to see as as the eighties says the you know some of the other DA's alert swapped out but the judge remain the same. Orlando Hudson even said at the end. Yeah like it probably shouldn't have included the Germany stuff or most of if not all of the bi sexual stuff and if that was the case. He definitely would have been found not guilty. That's stuff was just too Harley. So much of a coincidence the double stairway deaths and then again of who we've sold so about the bi sexual stuff but even with all of that. I didn't know. They different and prove him innocent but again that's not the job they just have to prove that he's not guilty and I kind of thought they did. I agree and I think you know that kind of goes back to what order like that the conversation we are making murder is what does that mean. To be found guilty beyond a reasonable belts right and I definitely think even like think he did it. I I don't see I don't I can't say beyond a reasonable doubt that he did. Yeah I definitely couldn't nose again without watching the documentary we have so much other footage that we get to see that we get the maker opinions but the boughs on the jury Tuesday. At the access like they were in the courtroom the entire time you saw everything and so that was. I was I was surprised by now the closing art of arguments by. Harden. That Jim Hart was the DEA. He talks so slow it's so softly the entire time. He said if the if the pictures worth a thousand words he said that like three times is like in if these walls could talk. Comic or cliche is like what what. If they might think you're a PowerPoint like this guy's brutal. So I think. What do things that I usually have beaten evaluate how to anyone right and you wanna hammer and yeah he's over and over and over and because that's that you want the curator. Remember photos like you're talking a five girls I was like yeah okay we're doing the murder case here Jim feel free to mix in oh some different. I don't and he didn't have the PowerPoint David Rudolph how the PowerPoint does surprises even like allowed. You can get a monster hit it to say it and you can create your own. Demonstrative in Newton and are in your own exhibit. Be helpful for everybody involved as you can see it. And then it's easier to both for the attorney but also for the jury I feel like it's out of bad idea. Could you attended and you've had twelve people who don't wanna be there cracks who don't understand the law and me to be honest they don't have service in new wants understanding that you do and a lot of the deliberations on the evidence presented is very technical and that you need to you need to present and the way that it. They understand it and that it it they remember it. And inform me. Is an attorney would these. Most stressful. Part. The entire period was the night before the trial when he tried to work up the technology the technology in his presentation. With a guy who is separating. Almighty god I so don't stressful for you the most enjoyable for me I was laughing out loud they used it so Matt dec that was the best seat in the whole thing I thought. And you can just feel it right he noted got to go to court tomorrow you're always nervous for you you don't go core and it's always a stressful situation. And you have in your mind he wanted to present and the guys does not think. His foreign temporary and is. It any sleep at public multiple times and that he's like. Yeah I I screwed up. As they got at least it's no matter at that he has with the wrongs flies again that's just one out of order that he has that little bar the thing is like to get rid of that barn is that will yet are now I can't but I I can get rid of it it is right. The competent. And comedy and then you know you've got it on the court expect and hope he does a decent job and that kind of those kind of screw up yeah impacted Jerry picked up listening they only focus. I'll capital and followed us right to be Sarah those bars a realize what what it. Not out of frame like that try to get it and I thought that. Also speaking at the jury 25 days in the mail ultimately reach the guilty verdict. I've never seen this before and again just from court TV in movies but. They said that how do you find in this who found guilty and then the judge went through every single one evolved to make sure that'd change their minds is that normal. You can ask that the jury Paul okay convicted that there's a juror number one Michael Mike Cameron do all to all of these guys up there. That I was I was at this thing now the Alfred plea is that all in North Carolina. Now that's everywhere that I've never heard of that because I I've heard of people. It says what is now admitting guilt just so they know they can get a lesser sentence but I did know about the Alford plea. Yet there's a couple of different please I think you can take a minute match and on the crown attorneys so. I'm not as well versed on that but. Yeah because Alfred plea is he you're not admitting guilt pictured saying that there's enough evidence. To convict you say you're gonna pleated subway attack. Oca. So Michael Pearson ultimately get eight years in prison in the then he gets out eighties based on house arrest for two and a half years in right now he's furry. Now he also not no use in prison and only as an older guy to begin with the but he aged like president like he was so all old by the end like he couldn't walk stairs comfortably like he was a mass. He let him. What else via so so they they also had a character so we have Michael Peterson it would set a lot about him modestly Kathleen Peterson. Oval trivia they have they were watching American sweethearts was the last movie there wanting recess at one. And just Todd Peterson was definitely odd Clayton Peterson seemed a little bit more normal usual the wife and the kids. Right Martha and Margaret we dirty hit on them about how they really. They were completely on board when their dad there that they thought he was innocent the entire time. I hate when we haven't mentioned heard all Caitlin out water Ruth Kathleen biological daughter. She was on record very early on. Singer dad was innocent and then she switched and then she was on the other side in sat on the DA's side the rest of the way. Right there was that kind of sad and it was the fact that you know she split from the people that you know where her family but I think breaky. Decided to their switched her position when she thought the autopsy photos and found out about Michael's affairs. Yeah I think if you had no idea about the bi sexual stuff so I think back Paris shakers today and she said the yet that that the person I knew couldn't have killed that are but I don't write them in the I think how powerful. And then her on its Kathleen sisters. My goodness now I'm just surprised. Again they know him better than certainly we do it you based off the document that we saw. But they clicked right away adamant that it was him at a 100% of them. A like that is. Especially Candice and the case was rested which is coming after everybody she was. But as it was is a probably much too much but she is she was a she was sure that it was him. Right so. I thought there was a lot I thought it was a lot. It at the end. At his hit it at the end of that the final episode. Course she got to get this statement and questions like creamy road ops and can read a prepared to do the job but he but he did his job re correct. This thing night the and they thought about it if they had been my sister. Yeah you might observe that he. Were you implying that if I did that to your sisters errors or are your other I would hunt you down I -- carry myself like I would hired David Rudolph that I go to prison for eight years already how theory that I get out. Exactly and if you got well I was trying to get her into like stocks here and making your life a living hell slightly yeah but a great deal. What I thought about it in those terms concede. Her behavior makes more sense that he. Yet does dobbs is surprised that an early on the process to was that there was no doubt her mind that it was him a good while right. All right so there I was and am very your relationship like she would've I assume with you if god forbid something ever happened to that yet it was probably in accidents like that would be the first thought. And then right and then you find out that I volleys emails trying to a couple of these escorts in the Marines need to wait a minute pulled out all the ground. So then you know and then kicked out of the pieces then. Yet but there's no owls out there that could the venue. Bill Peterson is Michael's brother Agassi he's also an attorney I was like you said you know along the different stuff. He seems so. We weren't already moral to hold a person that Michael yeah. But so you know he was so present for the first. I mean brands through the Trout said that the verdict is guilty verdict and then Freddie later episodes ECB other brother but come back. I yeah we don't we did see we did see him or Todd in the later episodes. Now I thought that was and I thought that would interest and. The yet you wonder how what what their relationship was like for those eight years how often they talk to how well that what happened who knows exactly it was it. Did you get the impression that. Which meant they younger one martyr martyr. I go back I I don't remember they don't want to see the face of the younger one by forget if it's Martha or Margaret. She didn't seem to happen and she seemed too. Until he realizes it let Al. She can hit it and the later episodes in the very beginning of the later after it was kind of question. Is. Gil I thought yeah means. And in eight years as a long time you don't know what haven't I mean how often do you think they've visited him. I don't know it's it that's a good question I we have no idea that it is that would especially those with the two young daughters they were sitting right behind him throughout the trial this week it exceed their bases like. Not just at the end result like obviously they're crying but. Yet people on the stand talking about like. He's trying to hook up with these dudes Jesus like they're risers like oh my god this is really happening right now the chance. That's tough. Out David Rudolph the attorney pretty much the entire way through there's a little off and on by the end but he is helping out some of those people. Now sports fans would be sadness stay at Rudolph also represented rake for Ruth. Who played for the Carolina Panthers heels of the Colorado for that he's known for conspiring to murder his pregnant girlfriend. Back in the day. I was looking this up. Recruits still in prison I think he's elderly get out in October which is insane he said. Would not be out of prison but David Rudolph that him. And just. How crazy too was yes and he's a review the celebrity lawyer but with the news that those are two very high profile cases but you know writers and recruit. His tee and that it was crazy how that he wanted to do it and then he's like I I got this other guy though they'll help you out at that record for that and you know the more recent trial. That guy. What are your latest brokers I wrote a string represented more than that woman had a stepped in and and she you know obviously good job forum. With the Ron was and Tom are those roots who the other guys are what I thought was awed that a forward. Those guys after a dead at trial there in an 03 were never. They'd go back in watching Nancy Grace talk about the trial the pilot you won't want to wanna hear that. Yeah you know I at. I wonder that genetic and I think part of it was they were talking about. You know how how publicly. They they played. Answer to the public and the media in this case to think they were very. Two and and are in tune with how they were being covered. Yeah editor recycled asphalt there was false information to elect as we were there where we were out to see all what was going on in court. And they come out and they would make up stuff are mostly ability Dietz does completely wrong but there are right there it's there and there. They think that watching how. Serve outsiders like integrated on our show. We're perceiving the trial would give them may be at play indication of how the jury without so interpreting things. Let's look at our academic sense then to me yet yet. What did you what played well what didn't play you know what it partly that you have read and what they need to do what they need to go back clear up or what they need to emphasize them access. What did you think of Josh carton he was the witness coach who. At the ice sheet to sheet guy. It. Was ridiculous you look at that. Elected beard and that they have like one good job with that either witness coach that's that's an excellent and incredible. Right he or looking at you left off said the character list though. We're gonna grab more Vienna the designer Brad. Oh yeah you're gonna ever you're goes disease Reynolds the amounts. It accurately. Gary he was my favorite when he pesticides. Each day. He was like so he liked his ass and so and also Freda black by the way the assistant district attorney. She was whole areas she also seem like from a different time but always on the spot that long ago like out of high school one that's it's not like forever ago. Is she has clicked the make up she looked like a waiting for golf and character. She did it would just panicked and she acts like won praise as he is he characterized some of the homosexual preference that they follow. All of I don't like her face that way issue is that she's like these army and he's he wants the he wants that relations with me it she's like air bases like. Couldn't believe that what was going on these emails. But I do I know that yet Brad is very that he also you want like sugarcoat it desperate black Alexa what would you do with Michael a undersea. He's like a team due up and say well like I would do what Michael. Click delegates but he said it didn't he say I don't know bode Italy. I don't always get a really good line about that yeah here is that is ridiculous but to summed up that hole exchanged between. Freda black and Brad. That was that was. My hair. Now the worst guy I mean it or almost on the podcast were almost on an hour but the the Duane Deaver was are too old Doris just getting can go worst guy in my. I even made an oaks I try to that I knew were under episode after like three or four or Michael this is good enough this should be an episode so us are taking a few notes and on wrote about Lego. The blood spatter on analysis is the ball for the guy was brutal but that's all I really perfect he's awful with the way talks the way looked. He looked like. Almost like mil house his dad but like yeah dinner you know that he was just obnoxious and he's literally while he is the reason why. Maybe both. He's the reason why he went to jail and let's that the defense is saying he's definitely the reason why is out of jail. Right I do think victory in my you know why he went to jail because when the one major or ask sort of like. Solidified. Their decision a lot of them said police deeper testimony. They did he. But if they took out the Germany in the bi sexual stuff do you think doing the birds alone when a government. Well maybe I I don't I don't think you can take out the homosexuals. Stop altogether I don't think he could because I do and that was it that was served. Their motive yeah that's Europe that would have to come in I think it probably wouldn't. A pilot and narrowed the couple what was allowed in would've been would've been narrowed at an event every single piece of porn here over the attack on the Internet right right right. So that was tuchman. I don't know if if if this State's forensic. Announcer person is testifying in telling you that there's no way he could get blood spatter on the inside of it short. And that. The the likes certain things on the wall with the with the splatter announced that are true. In a way. That is not scientifically accurate it probably. Yeah no us Erica. Yes I mean he was using huge part of it now my mother question Diaz watching it because. There's also the other case that I guess that it might be guy's name down the other guy that was put away. And then got out it Duane Deaver was on that cases well. What it what is the point. If you're Abe the blood spatter splatter analysis why do you need to. Find a way to keep victim but what's the why shouldn't you just say what the evidence is that why do you care. You shouldn't. Care so easy getting paid by somebody like without that ideological thing I can think of it why else. Would he want to make sure that all those guys definitely guilty not to say what happened that's your job like I didn't get that part. And I think he'd just. Can't keep himself to be more knowledgeable about criminal Sutton got a little power hungry with what he can do an eleven and haven't got a big earth bridges product well yeah I'd I can I know all the that he in the life rate in the heat that he and. But what does that motivate and I wanted to edit yeah and it app and now about hilarious and they're going through it's what you said here in the Hewlett 300 that you've done for public use is that all of the citadel the real experts about their like this slipping deeper did is that normal though it now itself well. He's a half hours. And doctor Henry has greatly but let's consider taking the ball and OJ trial. What does the preeminent. Let's span announcer and scientists and in the country. I found it so Anderson when they pulled him and they that the jury testing with him because people couldn't understand him. Oh yeah police and. Yet that's messed up the best idea I think. Not it's not it's that speaks of the entire south but I think that's more likely to happen in the south. And you know it and they were just like Gary nor do what he's saying but view is. He had but the correct information thought that right he's written a block yet between deer has not outwardly Deaver is up to right now we go away. I don't know how old La ray and that he and the frantic filed when he was. Really I mean he played video him public everyday that nobody had videotaped him going to the crime scene pictures of the president's lap Kona. Did he give you there Ed thanks Elaine personality exact. Very settlement now try to Orlando Hudson when they when he was very first on screen. I was like oh boy that I thought he he came across as like dumber than he ended up being but the the very first thing he said. Again maybe it's just these CDs breaks a little bit slower Samoa which Jim Harden but then as it got going as a OK like I announce the other sky could become a judge before it was like our word for our long trial there. Right right you know I think he did it a fair job as he erred on the side of caution them and letting things and then yeah. Anticipate it ordered the activation of that one on the body. Dobbs how's messed up are allowed. Browser that that was really messed up now the replacement for Jim Harden. There's a couple of places they're they're gone through a few DA's down there in Durham. The first one where can't this just is screaming at the judge that she's not a bit of heated there rob mistrial. Strangest thing doesn't sick but you're also right that lady not great. Yes I think public how on earth did she become a district attorney. And then we went back to it a great what a couple years later if she was the longer the district attorney. Right so it they. Can come across as sharp or question now known I don't know what else we missing anything else there. And an act maybe collected Dwayne deeper you have to where he was that he was the absolute worst and you knew it at the time and it's not like. Those really rooting one way or the other I'd I was I was very curious on what way the it was gonna go and then he was just so sure of himself I thought Rudolph that a pretty good job. Of talking to him then he obviously didn't know he is a complete liar than like how how would you know got back guys both beat the experts say you're you're kind of take humans weren't the way. But. Just like we so Michael Peterson it's odd that we're doing the work you just knew something was up with them right away. Right well. And difficult apple which went deeper. When we're talking how out of that they're finding out and the later that concerns about how when the evidence came into lab there must be DNA testing. But they Agassi has four on a bunch of testing because. Doing Deaver one cents hand and let's let her right but I'll take that I'll take home the deal. What exactly right and so why wouldn't it be up testing and now like it but what happened is that you would. Requesting evidence and if you could afford it which they clearly could. What do year round dear DNA testing yet. Yes that's right and it's a lot more atom an a album now it you have the money to conduct to have your own. Also yeah but I'm the first trial got going I was fifteen years ago right that they have obviously changed a bit but. And it just it's a crazy crazy story in the the the story of me again initially if it's just man finds his wife. At the bottom of the stairs he says he didn't do it maybe did do it like that alone is pretty intriguing the Doherty added all the elements. Of you know that the hidden affairs and those though. At woman at the bar with theirs in Germany like oh all right all that stuff that's what really made it. Even more compelling and I think. Again we we start the podcast were saying like all of normally would comparing it to make your murdered the jinx in this one they're all pretty good at this might be might be the best on. Rioting I would agree with that I I think it is about Oakland I also think 11 of the an interesting thing is to compare. This. Two legal representation that Michael Peterson was able to pay for yes to the representation and yet. That Steve Avery had in making hammer and sort of the in. The unfairness I think. Between. What you can get it you can pay for it and the defense that you basically can't put. If you campaign. Four and yet there's this scene there's a scene between Michael and his brother where they're talking about just that he's like gather he's like the rich get off just because they can afford to do it does I'll go like. So because they don't know that's a rich person all of them answer no because they get the pay for the best defense. Bright and all of that. That doctor Lee. You know he'd grand jury consultant to witness coach you would expect this really close to a I don't think it was a million but it was up there like 750 then is that the elements. Hong money. And that I would be and the intent and today it would be well over him in. Oh yeah our right right yeah. And and that's how you mean. And he put out a solid defense played a do you think they demonstrated that there was a reasonable doubt particularly at that child whether or not Michael Peterson and tell her. And he's still convicted. Yes. I know I'd Rudolph was like shook buys to concede that he thought he did enough views views per share that he did enough but. No he he did not so. Michael Peterson is a free man as it stands right now and I was reading an article. Somebody did an interview with the directors of French director of that then heard about this case came over in the right away got so much access which to me is what what. Separates it from the other ones. All right but. I guess it was about four months in where it you probably noticed that why are watching it the prosecution. Decided to pull the plug on it. Insight and that first the Michael McGovern here from pardon or hear from the assistant DA were like we're right in their meetings that were they gonna talk about our were right there. And so after about four months that would want to miss him more sedate pulled the plug on it. There was. Then there was a weird thing between the the like lawyer client. Privileges. And right like if there's a camera crew there. But does that void and then the prosecution was asking the camera crew for their footage. Exactly so they would what they would do is like Rudolph had to say that the camera crew and the director. We're like employees of his or they end there are some sort of loophole and then once we get the footage they were immediately said at the France. Smoke a they prosecution even after like north Selig wouldn't do it that we were entitled to this and made the sedate on the workarounds. And then also I guess early on. The family. Michael Peterson was less willing to have. Stanley on camera but then that obviously as a later on there's there Reynolds but yet at Baylor like that means stars they work yet. So with attorney client privilege it has to be between you and the attorney can be. Keep conversations with people in check the attorney employed but. You have a third party and there. It district apartment so any conversation that they don't see any. In depth conversations. Between. Michael Peterson. And is. Attorney about an incident that the public really nitty gritty details of the case. Oh. RBC a good amount but yet so there is certain times though like parents with school off bright yet not yet I mean. I don't know lie and all the other thing we did that directors its it was a tease them Mikey he's like it's been such a long process that is going to be part of his life the news wondered if there's immune to follow but I don't. I don't think there well almost analyst Michael Peterson commits another crime. Or write first front without argument that is part of that is there or whatever else. Last thinks that's so let us know at the or podcast and our podcast at gmail.com he has lost their case what you thought of the their case. The other the other a lingering questions or comments about it let us now before you got your article that you watched evil geniuses on Netflix yet. I have not that the death. Backed up on my true crime. It's not as good I don't think it's as good as the staircase it's only four episodes. It's so we can get the Roberts a lot quicker and it to me it feels more again it could could have been podcasts. Like yeah right you know they don't have the courtroom scenes and things like that but it's a wild story I got and you'll be intrigued by it anyway. Art all right anything else wanna you wanna cynical when each spousal shout outs aren't going. Now I think it is an inmate who watch the credit how could have a funny aka theatrical. Think it's like and novel murder summary that title as something ridiculous like that. All the checked out the Michael Peterson forensic files very good. Our loop back next legally it's a drastic world's followed kingdom the fight and get to see it so we will autopsy does next week.
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