Two Outs Ep. 22: Transgender marathoner Amelia Gapin interview

Thursday, April 12th

"Two Outs" is back and Reimer is flying solo this week. He speaks with Amelia Gapin, one of at least five transgender women runners who will compete in the Boston Marathon on Monday. Alex and Amelia talk about whether transgender women have an athletic advantage over their competitors, and the proper way to handle those concerns. Amelia also talks about why she felt apprehension about being the first transgender woman to appear on the cover of "Women's Running Magazine." 


Transcript - Not for consumer use. Robot overlords only. Will not be accurate.

And read where it's two outs podcasts would. Rory the rambunctious two way tie your mostly taught me the phenom Alex a rare. And the old time baseball do the six people who don't know what I'm getting the sixty who didn't know what before I'm gay priest is definitely wanna. Koppel Macy's definitely two outs which bond you Roemer. Welcome is absurd number 22 of the show about podcast. Force that's just it today and functions Dwyane on his own behalf and called the left out podcasts and that they Mora. Appropriate title for me anyway. There's not been 82. There's not many power why I've not picked up off his own show. He's shopping trip report today and you'll be back with me. And a couple of weeks so don't worry or to assuage spot these concerns with numerous text last night to not act stabbing mind and don't worry. He's off by doing an assignment today and will be back. In a couple of weeks. State the obvious it's been awhile since we've spoken. I haven't done one of these podcast since late January before the Super Bowl. And all of that will be addressed next week night your electric mini hands. Enough about me podcast I'm not trying to avoid any topics. Those of you listen to me for the last eighteen months written Redding for the last eighteen months hopefully now. I don't like to shy away from a hot button issues but not as though that there's much I can say about my situation. Without somebody else being in their rooms so all that will be just next week when a mine enough about me in their semi nice cross promotion for you anyway. As far as this weeks ago. As a says it's been awhile since he spoke in I saw it like to address the knuckleballer situation did not get a chance to weigh in on naps. They would be the first to say it. About Jack made the wrong move that's right and now back on the air ready ripping the patriots Bill Belichick made the wrong move. Publish it played. You're Tommy made one play. And I made one tackle. One stop Hamas come on I'm saying it I haven't heard for the last two and a half months some saying it up and Butler should have played. In this Super Bowl. In all seriousness sacred a great interview today. Familiar GAAP and is it my guest she's one of at least five transgender women I who'll compete in the Boston Marathon on Monday. I the issue of trans representation in sports of course is not hot button when in this country. Lots of questions about how to categorized competitive advantages. X that are out the Boston athletic association's official position. Is that people are free to register as a gender the identified. No questions asked. I'm doing is very outspoken about trans issues she's a first transgender woman to be on the cover of women's running magazine. And that has a lot of shots and trans representation in sports and a society as a whole last really surprised me in saying that. At first she wasn't sure where that she wanted to be on the cover of women's running magazine and somebody like me who. Ask any attention it received that was shocking let's Willis a magazine on tap you on the cover and you didn't want to do what's what's has so Emilia. And that did some really adjusting answers there about again not to strands reputation in sports by. Trans representation in society. And how trans people. Are portrayed so I certainly thank god it's an interesting interview. One of the better ones we've had a ninety Nazis out lightly. Gossiping to from listening coming up next is Emilia GAAP and it is two outs episode number 22. Welcome back the two outs podcaster today's match in the open it is sand Spock so I'm calling it the left out podcast that's. More fitting to me anyway but that someone who has not left out isn't merely a gap in CI. Is running this year in the Boston Marathon she is a software engineering co-founder of my trans health and on mine started connecting users are transparently friendly positions and mental health care professionals and she is out. Kick outs right there were happy however on the show Emilia Harriet. I'm doing great thanks for having me on us. Thanks for coming on so I've been reading your blog million dot Ryan and I must say. I feel very inadequate. Already this year you've run the Walt Disney World marathon the Walt Disney World half marathon. Half marathon in New York City you have Boston coming up which is why we're having you on the show tonight. Wow lots of races is not is that what we your typical reading schedule looks like. Get era last year yeah. Previously I have grand. Many fewer races and I had needed to call last year's start reading more races. Are we get better. Britney get Margaret experienced but are they just the change up my Jay McKee very. Yeah no that's it's a lot a lot of races I ran cross country in high school we have like the five K and that was enough for me so what it. So why I admire anyone he does he does a lot of races I'm an actor was on that note reading opposed do that in December. I love being in a running ruts not being able to get out of bed dreading getting out there. That's like can be like all the time unless it's like Cindy degrees outside Yemeni pointers for the layman such as myself. Aren't the only appeared yourself you know. Mature about it and OK add up and down I loved learning so much but there are a lot of it I really like going out there during. Yeah. When did you start running out at this level there was a runner or was this thing you found adult had. I started right in my. When I don't that was but they got down and earlier adulthood. To the way to sort of get the same particular Israeli Arabs I. Running out of it but miserable thing in the well let me buy it. It give it a try and after about I made completely. With the. A lot of that just like any. That a load time. Myself. I'm somebody's spent a lot of tablet computer collect. Let it social media are human works. Computer so only owes him a ball here. Distractions incoming messages and everything and when I run quarterly at all about it should be out there at. Back at least I get into just it's a great commitment to Al. Acting as a great. Get away from everything for a little. So you listen to music when you're running do you listen to just the open there. Open there wow that's impressive sight I greet you with a running like lifting doesn't do it for me I can't escape. I admittedly I'm very vain so I lift because of the query muscles accepts some but running I agree running the endorphins flowing. It is an escape for me as well that's that's reason why I I rent Nate here though. Not your level but like many people on I started reading about you became aware of you a couple years ago. 2016 when you were the first transgender women to be featured on the cover women's running magazine on the street at first a thank you read this. Maybe USA today that you didn't want to do the cover shoot at first is that correct. Yes I actually had a cup tie and deciding and accepting that they let I look back what the treaty's target. We do what he turned down and I think it. A little scary to be on the cover of magazines where I had your transgender and they well. Mostly that it really electric they're all. And a lot of attention is also the idea of it we need a better copper at a community is elect our. Covered length isn't. You know I don't it would general about the on the cover. Illustrated. Citadel is they wouldn't you know indeed covered actually picked. An epic game where they're bringing. Unwanted attention onto the community that make it harder. And the and that I felt like it would be a net positive. And I think it did turn happening but you know I never heard cleanly they always going to aid. A little bit capture that happened. What what propelled you to change your mind to think that OK this is something I wanna do when this would be is he putted up positive. I felt that having other transgender people see what possible that somebody chat. You're used to tradition and be turned Jenner and they'll sort of. Exactly the beauty eclectic I as a marathon runner could continue running around on a continue trapping my life. And it ate before Asian session. I would clear Craig Gordon gave up everything that you think are going to be taken away from you know. So I really want it to show that. Keeping our pop the ball and you are questioning and we are at record gender as their dictator tradition. That it can be okay. If you can visit it and things aren't always going to be at or you're a lot about about stories. Especially within our community. But I doubt that he's looking good out there might be out. Yeah I mean I was surprised to hear you say that being on the cover would bring. And wanted attention has per tablet Heatley Jenner was on the cover of all those magazines you know I was saying yeah there's a card dashing being in. Some in some baggage and Arab and overall you know this is exposure this is putting. Transgender people in the public light more than ever so some elect me I sit back and say I must be a good thing why you. Why why would you say it out give some unwanted attention be on the cover of a major a major magazine. I'll elect actually one of the things that you bring up by bringing up and gender and got and it. Go back if we on the cover of magazines or you get the attention. You end up being put into a position where you're expected to be different I mean I don't expect it to be employed and pay. Of all transgender people and not about Barr were all there are just you know individual people. I'm just like anyone else. And it is a lot about. I've been very unhappy about cable chatter and the point that she's gonna get an and we don't relate group a lot of what you said. And what about I think they've actually been a net negative for. We have the extra attention. You and don't let the path rebel and all of these things where. People don't understand that we are our lives. Think that this isn't something epic problems that are written you know transgender people that are written in oh my god they're going to be. Doing. You know that that other. And the reality we didn't hear the whole you know we've been using. And regular restrooms without problem or a quality humanity is just Ralph thanks. I value added extra attention and people think edit. Something that it do the same problem but they had a terror. It fuels all the media attention especially when of the conservative outlet. Talking about it and then they expect a lot of information. Calling a man in that Matt. Saying that we are. Predators or sexual predators or we are child well there's there you ever perverted things that they are trying to put on. Do we get the attention it comes with all of that as well. And when a country and people who are still confident that you got. 888 toppers are they gave a pop that thing. These articles. And they say well you know that greatly. Maybe it was a pick it but then inevitably they're going to office in negative side but recorded either comment. All of the comments section I don't know how WikiLeaks on an article that come up about that. Has the public comment that the now just like that beating like humanity and the humanity at the other partners. I'll let or not we are who they are. Debate aren't in the belittle the validity as. There's a lot of what you think about giant people aren't called it the people I let me see what kind of world table each and this sale. So yeah there at the public so there. But yeah like from my perspective on openly gay and the way I always view it is you know the more of people who come out. The Maury deep people who are visible in society you know my 89 ninths and always is it's not the familiar the familiarity helps you know for people say oh yeah I know many gay people are a lot my favorite actor actress is a gay person from Gannett. Changed my perspective on nappy you're saying you think that. Eight it would it would sometimes tough to fly under the radar or or or or is it just Caitlin Jenner and in particular you'd bank has brought some this unwanted attention. I mean a lot of it is better but a lot of it also happening before. Transgender people overlap. It seven years all have started to build a more comfortable coming how com. Things were getting slowly better erupting under the Obama administration. Natalie stepping up that's. But I think that people started. Seeing that are ready and OK and jagr actually hit a particular date on it. I had. Sent a lot of things that we. The agreement. I do agree that would if RT eight something you know actually go to ready to figure it carrier in my case. Transgender and day. RJK. But the movie guerrilla war. Gays and lesbians and now our actions under it also marks little utter one and they're the higher percentage are higher and knowing somebody get on you could go to that tactic and it worked out better but the trip need a lot smaller. And well. Realistically everybody that church and a person like they probably didn't know at the right. Our communities and small that we can't have it that tree and that way and that. Tactic overall. It's probably not artwork for a but it would agree that what we do it you know people are people gotten a lot. They are a lot better. I think that it does all that what they get to know UNC. ER a person I may actually get reminded option humanity. I shaky start to change their mind. So what do you think is the most effective tactic then to change hearts and minds. I'll I do think about the fact that tactic is to. Live our lives as we are. Try to be open as we had and bigger loss strident. All of a personal level by. Changing the minds of people but what well. Pushing for the media attention. It's been kind of like almost what like aggressor. Level. Were you keep it smaller. And you docket and inviting a lot less public conservative outlet getting into that. But that was an allotment a ration bread and we just don't have an upkeep our community can about that at that level. I do think that that's the best way to go forward personally and also I think a lot of these. Fighting right now we've been doing it and helpful. But again and that when they get media attention. JetBlue at all. The can you really got a and you continued the can you give that you mention you when you're on the cover of women's running magazine for example he said alternately excited to do it because it's important. President trans people say oh yes I can transition be who I really am and continue on with their life continued do what I love can you really govern your actions based on you know what right. Carter Fox News would sect. I don't personally right and I don't think that as people's I think that. You know you worry about the things starting to get gave me you'll never do any. But at the same time. It's hard to completely ignore your going to you know there there and you do that through at least understand the risks. Lends to Tucker also did a segment. The other night on the show and luckily for all but he didn't mention any earnings. But if you haven't are Karl and legend not binding and excel is our eye because of what economic might and our personal. You know everything that I do and you're not dale console where Matt. Knowledge and understanding what your party is up until. What's the feedback like knowing you're on the cover and when he sixteen of women's running magazine did you hear from a lot of other trans people trans runners. It was surprisingly. Much more positive earnings expected there was of course a lot of. It is not being Internet. Let it. Well other than expected. A lot of people are super supportive. The running community and we think Mary Ann over the last couple years iPad. Probably know hundreds of trans people come out Tinny. Tell me. Matt whether via but Virginia they look at Twitter yelling at commenting on my blog I'll bet seat that was helpful or that it. Made them feel like it could be okay patent. That it was possible to be who they are at. It can help a lot of would you consider it to be you went bad because the I think back it wasn't that popular. Going into a forehand I didn't know what it is a page. Right. I what is the biggest challenge you think immediately that I'd trends runners space in the competitive racing and that. That information or I think that everybody thinks well not everybody but people do. Don't understand that we app and it managed say eight be fired me and you are yet changed. There are rules for out as an entity because there are feeling instead of understanding that the debate a bill that debate on. Every shirt signed but surely there is no competitive advantage. And the old little. What are the days went too far. So when BJ it will be good that the B according to let. The research and what reality. People don't really want to understand that they wanted to look at and say. Well you or whatever you want through puberty. Are certainly fail the purity. You can't undo that. And sure that is the puberty. But are you a lot now. About that it's elect kind of armor changed a lot over time. They undo a lot of that all of map at our circuit. That's kind of the biggest thing of getting people sort of understand. The actual science and PU beyond their ninth grade level biology class understanding. I see things as they are in reality as an expert. At the researcher. That would bat and get people understand that they would care a lot lot. Right because that's issuing you're featured an article in the Boston Herald which ran earlier this week there are at least five openly transgender women running. In the Boston Marathon this year and a biologist. From the university South Carolina was quoted he said. Exactly you say he said he thinks it could be an unfair advantage beat ties transgender women might produce more testosterone but you're saying that that is a fallacy be ties. You're transgender woman year usually taking some sort of hormone not that that deplete your testosterone level is is that correct. Or. Yeah I ended it to those statements I didn't think governor Pete comparative do a lot of articles. Happy actual scientific content of the community and the medical community here. I am community. In general they would disagree with I think that probably article. Act act for the Puget degree at bat based on research. Quarter as well. They reality is that you know. My conductor liable for a lap or five years and bad under a normal. Our keynote range for a bouncer by quite a bit. So I don't have these high level but at sir I. Lost roughly 10% off of my performance. Four Marti the eighth where I am now when you actually look at the performance between men and women in order running. There is about terms and different if you measure at the top level. So I kind of fell off in baton back into that range that you would expect to be a difference between matter. The head of the boss athletic association is quoted in that Harold article as well saying we don't really. We don't wanna make you know trans transgender people's lives more difficult they're faced a lot of hurdles if somebody identifies as a woman. Where they're free to sign up as a woman but you know my question would be so you've been taking hormones he Saban producing testosterone and not a lower level. Over the last five years by. What if you know that doubles not it would say well how about somebody who identifies as a woman. Who hasn't been taking his hormones and still has more mail tight levels of testosterone in in May enter as a woman in. Get that competitive advantage what would you say that. I don't know on the we've actually seen it happen in reality no I don't know. How much. Argument which may into the paper that hypotheticals. I have bird out and no concerns at the limit you are a bit older and at transitions without armor. And our we in that case is specifically. They're not competing at these upper level like Huckabee winning prize money they're not going to equate in rate as. There's a kind of like summer in the middle pack from where I don't know if anything I don't think that that matters much I do think. When it comes time competing. At the level let your waiting I money. There is our conversation that we probably have to have it or how we segregate in general. Not just because attract people look at. Gender men and women who don't have normal armored level are capped a 900 and senator Bayh she has high level. I achievement not Libyan. And that been kind of a talking point. In May attract community for Lyle and how to deal that. So I think that there is a conversation back out there I wish I had it easy answer for that. For their cases opposite of what you highlighted where people. Patent issue what Al taking part and. It murky ID. Have my own personal feelings on I think. Parliament are very important and they change a lot. But I also think that it completely dehumanizing and insulting you. How Accenture and a woman but she kept you register as Malkin. Especially after charity even thought about it especially package shall argue that match. You know. But that's part in the top pick up a conversation yet and I don't know that they're easy answers. But I Utley topic but just a problem because the transgender people. Right so when you're in your opinion back comes down to a question of humanity verses. Competitive advantage and you would fall more on the humanity side event. Or we're now shark you left I would I would pursue our arm again. From most people if you are winning prize money. I think that right now. The best we can do is eight and our armor. But I haven't seen like that case. Where somebody is that back at a level at which should have our arms yeah. On a glossary little bit of your story Melia and you. Decided to you have a pursue the procedure because you wanted to qualify. Recent Boston as a woman is that correct and I read that correctly. Com. It that actor it's not a lot of articles. It would I'd imagine that the reason. Why are we going to happen what happened or during the map and injured just a debate possibly getting and it was it's a marathon. My running is extremely important let me know how old Saturday it would effectively as they runner. But that's always. There and Carlo and I put all surgery either at one point not edit it one habit. Because that's how might be acting in the runner and their recovery time. Eventually. I got to Wear. Like about the level blockers so well. It felt like I was being held back I put in key where I should be able to do with other women. And I had the period and that it I had surgery that it not take. Blocker anymore but he stuck to level my body was built up a little because what we're being produced recall. Were it not be blocked. And now I can go either way there I heard rob anecdotal evidence or on the way. And the and the market is a Glock a little a bill. Just below the normal you know rate at a higher than what before. And compliment but it is happy it got passed a lot about. By the fact that in your running on a copy hydration. And we have a lot of energy. So those deadly accurate that went into it but it may read it wasn't my owned orient how I felt. Relations in my body and what I needed it is an epic but in the world. As they would like they get 6040 thing now we're learning a foreign. OK so wasn't just still wasn't just a bossa merit not it was a running thing in general neat testosterone you're producing and in here don't. Yeah I mean at that there. Huge that patience at its very nature and invasive surgery. At what that he got back from now we have to be sure and you know you I think doing it just an acre. Running very eager. Ability to compete. We'll probably be in the April let people. You need to have more of it and that secret that little problem. How to pastors and the people or other surgery so. They wanted to implement it ever started at 888 minute other like one. Look at nowhere and it actually having it. Right so. Matt met up Monday Melia. I before he gets about oh you're in Boston this weekend what is the 19 marathon thing you're dying to do here and I here in our fair city this weekend. And one non are the tough question mostly. Yet it. I'm going to be on the pain and hurt gipper anywhere at all food on it goes yeah. Love eating. Probably Morse at the end I should right away and very it is trying to restaurant it. You bars. And yes I think everything happens it definitely running out. On while Larry cross country in high school might migrate cross country gays now. We'd have big pasta dinners tonight for just load up on impostor. Drink lots and sewed. Similar thing before the marathon because I will be honest I'm not sure that always out while media day after I mean I relics six minute miles south. But clearly did not arms and not work. Now don't like the go to not a bigger that a drink. You look I had. Adult described carpet Carrie and I basically. I ER. I didn't edit able right before I thought Eric you. To be able to read I'm not about Wall Street eating cat. I'll let about it and I rotten at the big plays out war. A bakery at LB yet. I'll pop managed any kind of you know. So I am all about Batman is we have ever been at a public rally and are. It would and we got a car carpet ten million. I. Think someone to I think that once you found in new identity. I hit what is some what is your golf when it's your time goal for the race on Monday Melia. Are my goal is a bit lower and what it normally would do for a marathon I'm. Look at the fear of the leak it to the four hour. Mark my plan is more debt on negative negative sort of look at victory lap. Where are all the hard work and but it got there on qualifying what would you briefly shortly but meanwhile. The pitcher to enjoy it I thought. And I'm running in the a few days later op exert in California. So I don't want it totally trashed my legs. Another every school I just feel worse and worse my god. Emilia amid yet they did so much for coming on the show. Great stuff and acted like on Monday I will I will be out there watching Joseph sober I will be its bit of a drinking here by now. I'll be out there watching grinning guys on thanks again for coming on. Thank you are happy being. And I got injury problem. So a big thank you again to a million gap and for coming on the show today. I certainly learned a lot. Enjoyed speaking with her and again I was just floored floored to learn. That she. Didn't want to appear on the cover of women's running magazine at first and it took her awhile to change your mind to come to that decision because well I will. Conduct the interview that he. Anybody anybody anything for any publication time open for business ISO. Yeah putts evidently little more thought tastings and IDs so I was interested to learn all that again hopefully you all enjoyed. The conversation I it's been awhile since I've done this deal so bear with me but Lee is two outs is back. Subscribe to the podcast the nineteen Stewart we've yet to do yourself as he necessary to ensure at an annual edition of the program. It's downloaded into your iTunes library when ever is posted and please leave every few. We are still at a five star review in the nineteen store which is Amy is considering all of that swirled. Around me so five stars I team story that tells you how good this podcast is in next time we speak I promise bock will be back. Not just be me in my screw ET voice you'll have folks also baritone in perspective. To balance me to pick you up from listening paste into Emilia talked UC.